Theorical remake of character animations #900
Replies: 10 comments 54 replies
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Proper Dual Wield and Two-Handed player / human male and female sprite animations would be fantastic; if you choose to do so :-D!
Can these have the option to be rendered at 100% render resolution (enlarged x 4 times compared to 25% render resolution of Flare x 1 default scale art assets)? I can help with stitching the art together / animation definitions / manual work (via ImageMagick Montage). I lack the sharp blender skill to make good new animations for 2H and dual wield animations for male and female player / human sprites. Those two things I value greatly and currently there is a lack of proper animation support for these play styles. I have rough work-arounds like my shield swap dual wielding animations and using single handed animations for two-handed weapons. Although proper animations for dual wielding and two-handed play styles for both male and female humans / player character sprites would be fantastic to improve the playstyle gameplay experience for the Flare ecosystem. Even if we don't get a script for automatically making the tileset definitions we can still brute force it manually (like I did with my 16 x 190 tileset definition https://opengameart.org/content/flare-super-dungeon-tileset-version-10 ). Also if we use the big non-compact image formats we can reuse animation tileset definitions (just match the pixel frame dimensions). I can go to work on making the animation tileset definitions (just like when I did the prototype dual wielding animation definitions). I want to get the blender files with the 2 new possible animations (2H and dual wielding) with the same render rig as with with the other default Flare art assets. So that I can make 100% render resolution / enlarged x 4 scale versions of the default 25% render resolution flare x 1 scale rendered from the blender model with the 2 animations for 2H and dual wielding for male and female. To hopefully get the sprite animation image frames happening. I can splice all of these animations together and link the tileset animation definitions together to make new (hopefully) fully functional dual wielding and two-handed animations for both the player / human male and female sprites for the Flare ecosystem. I want to do enlarged x 4 100% render resolution Flare 4K animation art tilesets + definitions for both of these 2H and dual wielding animations. If that works I can also make regular x 1 25% render resolution Legacy Flare animation art tilesets + definitions. I just need to get new animation blender files in a blender render rig that works just like the regular Flare render rig. With 100% render resolution for enlarged 4K tileset frame images for making Flare 4K art assets and 25% render resolution for default x 1 Legacy Flare tileset frame images for making Legacy Flare art assets. Also if we use the big non-compact format (a big square animation sheet from the older version of Flare) we can use these animation defs and have our lives be happy still. |
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@Danimal696 I have been thinking off and on about this in these last few days about my Unity assets. I was trying to make a Unity physics based 3D medieval fantasy game that played like mount and blade. In this pursuit I collected / purchased many high quality animations. I am wondering if I could employ them here / share them in a closed / not public manner (to not give out the guy's commercial work to the internet directly). I wonder if the animations could be used as a part of a work to improve Flare and the blender model with the modified version / made to work with flare / unique variant could be shared legally and help the creative community? I have most of these medieval fantasy themed animations from Kubold for example: https://assetstore.unity.com/publishers/5491 |
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I can say with almost certainty that those resources could not legally be used outside of a Unity project. The same goes for anything in the Unity store. Even using them as "learning material" would be a grey area at best and something I would avoid 100%. |
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Yeah, great if I can somehow find a legal way with Kubold but if not, just keep searching I suppose. |
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Yeah understandably Kubold does not want to mix his commercial work for free open source work to prevent having his full time job being undercut and potential catastrophically obliterated in a free market. I believe that people should be paid fairly for their work. Thus I think first off it is illegal to share Kubold's commercial work as open source. Also I believe that it is not operating in good faith and good will of the creative community of the entire world to potentially kill Kubold's lively hood via effectively ~'backdooring' Kubold's commercial work as open source composite works. Also I believe that is immoral and or bad practice and not operating with good faith and of good will of the creative community to not be operating with the consent of the work's author: Kubold. |
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I will try to find some more useful animations that could work and can be shared publicly with Open Game Art legally. It is a good idea to make more plans just in case if the Unity assets are off the table. |
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Or maybe not for they are GPL. |
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https://opengameart.org/content/modular-rpg-characters Perhaps these could help? I am not sure what animations they have; yet there are public domain. |
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System G6 added the animation rig 7z file as well. |
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Hi, I´m just reading this, that last one seems good, I´ll check what animations they have, another way is to expand and improve current animations; but we need to reach a consensus. Currently the hero models have 34 frames total, increasing them would make it´s animations more fluid. Since I won´t compress the spritesheet until a far future time, what would be a good frame target to avoid excesive ram memory use?. Also, we can´t make the hero animation look much better than the enemies or they will need an overhaul as well; so we need to hit some middle point between those two factors. |
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I agree unisex animations are intuitive but body scale size and male / female body shapes are different and should have their own animation sets. Also I agree on desexualising the animations but women and men look different even at a distance and the shadows and body shape overlaps are different and will clash when mixed. Also I think that for example most people expect to have men shaped like men and women shaped like women (within reason) / Diablo II Resurrected style. In that sort of player identity expectation should be available to the player to immerse themselves in the game world hopefully. If they are gay that is another tangent but male and female human bodies should look like regular men and women and it would make sense to have a unisex animation ~'motion set' shared between the two. Also when a person learns Historical European Martial Arts (fighting like a medieval warrior) the techniques don't really change if it is a male body or a female body that executes the techniques. The scales are different and shape of the body is different sure, but the general motion is the same within reason. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dl9ttaAXriM&ab_channel=Shadiversity + https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ah7B8nwWa0c&ab_channel=CombatCon |
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@Danimal696 I replied to System G6 with a comment about a potential animation rig. https://opengameart.org/comment/95734#comment-95734 I was looking through the animations of Modular RPG Character's blender file and I noticed a lack of options for dual wielding animations (2H seems workable). I then did some research for practical dual wielding techniques. I found some answers within this reply; of which I also found it useful to also share here for more clarity. " ...Do you [guys] have any more dual wielding animations? Everyone has probably seen this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7UOryLeU86A&ab_channel=Axhol3Rose and been over the moon with it but it is mostly parry techniques and not very practical Hollywood fake sword fighting (like stabbing straight through a hardened steel breastplate / brigandine with a one-handed sword). Although a more reasonable method of dual wielding that lends it self to animation can be roughly found here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOOfZvhnIl0&ab_channel=FedericoMalagutti + https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5iOnCih2UmQ&ab_channel=FedericoMalagutti (the second video is quite reasonable for practical dual wielding techniques.)" |
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@WithinAmnesia We also need to try and be efficient. Our animations are brief and have a fairly short range of motion. At a certain framerate, a lot of the frames would be near duplicates. But there would probably be single pixel differences, so we wouldn't be able to save on space. I mentioned the swing animation, which is 10 FPS. Bumping that up to 15 would be a bigger leap in perceived smoothness than the jump from 30 to 60 for example. |
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@WithinAmnesia, it´s not like these animations are absolutely final; with that I mean is that a 15 frames attack can be increased to 30 or 60 frames, by using "Nla strips" Blender does the work for you, they will need fixes but that´s it. Now, I can see a problem with upscaling art to 4K, the current models lacks much detail, they have simple textures and plain colours, extra detail is faked by using normals and noise modifiers. If you have seen "Wondercall" aka FlareHD this is pretty obvious (female model), that means the models would need an extra "layer of paint". You should have that into account if you want it to look good. Also, Flare is supported and played on Android, so i guess going overboard and departing for current Flare standarts would hurt mobile version a lot. Now, other consideration to have is that I think keeping the current skeleton is the best path. That way I only need to create the new animations and apply to it (expanding/reusing old ones), saving the time of parenting a new skeleton to every single model, since they are all already parented to existing bones why not use them?. The only problem i see is the female skeleton being somewhat smaller than the male, so the animations could be a bit of, I will need to test. |
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@dorkster @Danimal696 15FPS is very much workable and should be respected for the quality of animation. I can see that right now using 15 FPS 4K would be an amazing upgrade and could have a lot of longevity. Although my concern is if it can be increased to 30 FPS and 60 FPS later on if needed. If Flare can operate 4K animations at 15 FPS I would be over the moon but that lingering wonder / question of if 4K 30 FPS and 4K 60 FPS can be achieved in the future without a new render rig would kind of haunt myself. Ideally 4K 60 FPS should be aimed for to ensure future proofing, 4K 30 FPS is a very solid upgrade and 4K 15 FPS is a very respectable level of quality. That being said 4K 15 FPS animations may make the more reasonable amount of sense for quality verses work needed to achieve right now. I agree with @Danimal696 with 4K render quality of the sprite models. The detail found on the default human male and female models are not exactly getting the most out of 4K due to their lack of original detail of texture and finite details. Yet it seems that if we make a new animation skeleton / animation rig of sorts and get that working with the existing models that could work for right now quite well. Also then if needed / with a natural progression if the Flare human male and female 3D models get native 4K detail versions those could hopefully be applied to the new animation rig / skeleton and rendered later. So as to hopefully make the work load reasonable in doing things step by step verses all at once XD. Also as much as I like PC I can see that it would be illogical and probably a mistake to gut android support. Yet I do believe that common support for 4K 60 FPS will come to android devices in the 2020's. So I'm not entirely bashing on mobile support to throw all of my eggs into the PC basket. Rather I believe that as history shows PC leads the way and mobile in a generation or two catches up. So we can have the best of both worlds if we have aims for higher performance PC options like 4K 60 FPS support being possible (yet it does not have to be readily used right now, but is possible for future proofing); while being reasonable and working efficiently today with say a practical 4K-ish (legacy models in 100% render resolution / technically 4K) running animation at 15 FPS. This development approach could be healthy in the long run for we can plan ahead and hopefully add longevity to the work and hopefully as time goes on that will save work with the strengths of planning so hopefully we can help people today and tomorrow. Also retrofit hell should be avoided because damn it is so soul crushing as a game developer forced to hack and slash solutions to together to get games to operate at a level of a current player expectation of quality (be that in the late 2020's and or 2030's and beyond). I can see if we only aim for current solutions and have no place for future proofing we could end up like Baldur's Gate Enhanced Edition where the game could not effectively be modernized across the board 15 years on. Or worse like RPG Maker series where it is effectively stuck in a hard loop of 1990's design and graphical output with no native / natural way to expand or grow to meet modern standards. So as much as I am making a fuss now about 4K and 60 FPS it is because of my experience in development hell with modding in Baldur's Gate and using outdated clunky tools to make outdated and clunky new content for an outdated and clunky game engine. Also moreover my development hell I suffered through with the nightmare of effectively turning a tricycle into a helicopter and having the whole project implode from over complexity after over complexity from hacking and slashing solutions into RPG Maker MV. The retrofit hell of RPG Maker MV got so bad that even to do the most basic of expansions I had to rewrite scripts and modules and it got worse and worse every time I had to do it; and I was forced to do it over and over. It got so bad with being stuck and forced deeper and deeper with each new content creation patch into the deeper and deeper levels retrofit hell. That the work flow pipeline of content creation was entirely driven to insanity. Thus the developer workload reality reached a critical mass of an entire project breaking point where I had to step back and just throw away around 3-4 years of work (that felt very painful that I might add); all because ultimately the base system of the game engine and creative tools were not built with future proofing in mind. I really really really don't want the Flare game developers in 10-15 years to suffer the same fate as Baldur's Gate Enhanced Edition and moreover RPG Maker retrofit hell. 10-15 years seems so far away why even bother mentioning it? Well as one person if a person wants to make a great game they need a longer development cycle and working for 3-5 years on one game for a proper day one launch day is not uncommon. So as to reasonably be a solo game dev and still be able to produce a high quality video game all while also upholding high quality standards. Some AAA insane / budget studies can crank out a high performance current generation large scale game in 1-2 years within reason. Yet for the average person they are not a 1 billion dollar game studio nor even a 1 million dollar game studio. Thus the solo game developer is subsequently forced to fight uphill and thus must find and reply upon low input -> high output powerful creative tools to work with. Also the game engine and the creative tools must also be able to go the distance for 10 to 15+ years and hopefully succeed at becoming commercially viable. As one person armed with an unyielding passion, empowered by an unbreakable will to realize and manifest a dream to be shared with the entire world; today, tomorrow, long after and beyond. So I can see for Flare that the main population using Flare are average people, rich or poor working a regular job and doing game dev work on the side. This would reasonably mean that the most common situation for the use of Flare would be that from a solo effectively hobby game dev. This makes a scenario where the average person creating a high quality game with Flare is forced to fight harder than an average game developer with a specialized focused dev work role in a game dev team in a video game studio. So as to put into perspective the distance of effort for a solo game dev to effectively bridge the gap verses even a 3 person game studio; in terms of efficient time management and constantly dealing with a lack of person power in order to create new content with Flare. As where a solo hobby hours game dev is effectively forced into doing nearly everything in near-all fields of new content creation as one person. Then also consider a solo game dev has to be competing with significant difficulty for efficient workflow pipeline of content creation / dev work time management to produce a high quality game. This difficulty of effort for solo game dev can be seen even up against even 3 people of a small dev team with specialized dev work roles. Let alone with the magnification of difficulty that is entailed with a solo dev to effectively compete up against multi-billion dollar video game studios of 100+ senior devs and creative staff. This lack of person power for a solo dev is one hell of a mountain to climb in and of it self. Let alone the lack of focused work specialized offered by even the smallest of dev team sizes. Yet the David verses Goliath scenario can be overcome by a solo dev if they have the unyielding hunger and the creative tools up for the task. Also a solo game dev needs to not just create day one launch of a game but to efficiently build and support the game's community moving forward and probably up to at least a decade if the game is a banger of a hit. So then if it took around ~5 years to make the game as a solo dev and it takes about ~10 years / a decade of post launch support (expansions, patches etc). That is roughly ~15 years combined of dev work from starting pre-alpha, prototyping, iterating, bug fixing, properly launching, adding more post launch content and then journeying into long term support and community growth. So then with all of that considered, approximately ~15 years is a very reasonable amount of time needed for a solo dev trying to make it and hopefully become a commercially viable independent video game developer. So then ~15 years of combined over all dev work is not an unreasonable expectation. If not even having ~15 years of combined dev work time being a usual expectation for this kind of long term strategy. So as to hopefully produce a high quality video game for the entire world to enjoy; even being rich or poor as a solo game developer. So then with all of that said, a solo dev needs some pretty powerful game engine and dev creative tools. Of which these both then have to hold up for ~15 years within reason. A very important point to make here as well is that this case of a solo game dev and 15 years of combined work is not for a niche case but rather for the most common of cases of people using the Flare engine to build games with. The case of an independent game developer starting upon creating a (hopefully) high quality video game as a solo game developer dealing constantly with limited person power and limited hours to tackle the demanding workload. A solo game dev person really really really needs both a future proof game engine and creative tools in order to have a fighting chance of being commercially viable and delivering a high quality video game experience to the entire world. Also most people as well don't have 10 banger hits of work in their entire life time. Perhaps 1 or 2 on average if they are lucky or just really talented and work very hard. Most game developers are solo hobby game developers at very least as well. If a person wishes to create a high quality video game it will most likely take around 15 years from to start to finish per video game. Look at Clint Bellanger for example. From what I currently understand Flare is beloved by the Open Game Art community and Clint started on OSARE / FLARE in ~2009. Then with even just Clint alone it took to around ~2017-ish to manifest a high quality alpha demo; to then get close to Flare 1.0. Then as a direct result of the hard work and path finding efforts of the Flare alpha demo, Flare 1.0 launched with the Empyrean Campaign in 2018. From 2009 to 2018 alone is ~9 years of developer work. Also Clint was not alone either for Flare has been worked on by at least 10 very solid developers of which @dorkster has been dev team MVP for some years now. So with all of that said 100% render resolution 4K-sh 15 FPS human player character male / female 3D / 2.5D model sprite animations are great for right now. Yet please please please have the option for reasonable future proofing (as with the possible support of 4K 60 FPS) for aiming ~15 years into the future. So as to hopefully be aiming at reasonable whole project game developer long term support for late 2020's and 2030's and beyond. So as to provide a very solid game engine and creative tools / platform basis for rich and poor people working alone as solo game devs to have a reasonable shot at creating high quality video games. That hopefully each game with enough hard work, passion and dedication can have a chance at becoming a classic video game. Although with all of that said for right now 100% render resolution 4K-ish Flare human male / female ~'legacy' 3D models used with a new (hopefully future proof) animation skeleton rig with support for 15 FPS animations would be fantastic! These 100% render resolution 4K-ish 15FPS animations for the Flare human male / female model / sprite would make a lot of sense in the immediate time frame. Either way I am very happy that we are working to make Flare better for the creative community across the entire world and hopefully empower the creative people of the world; rich or poor :-). Also I hope the dual wielding animations look better in the near future as well XD. The 2H sword and 2H polearm animations are coming along; I hope. I really like this project and I hope that it can get better and when it is ready that is can be released properly and hopefully really improve the Flare community for years and years. I am very thankful for all of the work and interest from the creative community and I wish to help when I can and where I can. I hope to continue to operate in good faith and in good will of the creative community across the entire world :-). |
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@Danimal696 Can Wandercall assets be used? There are some high detail player models in there. Although I am not 100% certain what to do for a male base model (blend / mix Wandercall [3D items] with Flare [3D character model] assets?): https://opengameart.org/forumtopic/wandercall-assets-for-flare-use-thank-clint-bellanger-d + https://github.com/clintbellanger/wandercall-assets + https://github.com/clintbellanger/wandercall-assets/blob/master/README.md + https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OmIL_WdiAos&ab_channel=ClintBellanger Also can the frame rates have different versions / scaling frame rates render options in the .blend animation rig / set up / file like how Flare tilesets and animation renders can adjust for higher or lower resolution to be rendered? So that people could pick what kind of frame rate (more or less) would work best for them? Like 60 FPS or 30 FPS or 15 FPS etc. or what ever makes sense. Would a new animation rig need to be made for scaling frame rates? I think the resolution can already be adjusted higher or lower when rendering 2.5D animation sprite tile sets. What are your thoughts and or questions on all of this? |
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The framerates are easy to adjust, just go to any animated model, select skeleton, nla tracks, select one track and "scale" it, that will make the entire animation to increase size and softness of animations (the bigger normally the better), you can select total lenght in frames as well, I used that "cheat" to adapt existing longer anmimations to flare style by shortening them. (Look at my rats) |
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Okay thank you very much for teaching myself this:-D! I am out of brain power more or less right now but I need to better understand how to better animate if I am to get more things animated properly in the (hopefully) near future :-). So, okay if there is a (more or less) usual / ~'standard' Flare style blender animated 3D model .blend file; it can be opened in Blender (2.79 or better I take it?) and have the frame rate and resolution be tweaked up and or down? As in like for example there should be the animation controls / tools / potential (within reason) to take a Flare skeleton / human / creature .blend animated 3D source model / file and crank up the render settings to get 60 FPS with 4K (4 times more) graphics resolution for creating working / proper 2.5D Flare animated assets? |
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Sadly, it´s a "do it yourself" kind of development; you gotta learn how to do things and develop your own methods for the next models, and apply it one by one. I use 2.79 out of habit, for the kind of use I´m lately giving to Blender I won´t care to learn the new interface. You can open the files with all new blender versions no problem. To simplify things I use the same timeframe for all monsters (some exceptions apply) so I can reuse later the animations.txt with just minimal changes. |
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Okay so that sounds like working on what you know works and trying to use templates to work efficiently. |
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@Danimal696 @dorkster Okay soo... What is needed to take the animation rig swap out the low poly male and female models and swap in like high poly nice looking 'modern ' / 'new' / 'good looking' models? Or like mate the woman has no face like lol. I'm feeling kinda bad the lady literally has no face and like the dude is low poly. I have 4K on my set up but like others could do night graphics and tailor the resolutions higher to their games. What would it take to do a high res version of Flare characters? Like the woman from Wandercall is a start? #854 Is there a male version to go with that to swap out the models and like render in the render rig as a start? I know the animation frames are a bit weird but like if we do it in parts like get better graphics then figure out the animations that could be reasonable compromise and everyone could benefit hopefully. |
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You can switch to the other pieces by changing the active layer: |
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Oh thanks lol. |
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Is that tilesheet.bat file the same as a Imagemagik script thing like this? |
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@dorkster @Danimal696 @clintbellanger How does one add proper two-handed swing and dual wielding animations for the Wandercall lady / avatar in Blender 2.79? |
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@dorkster What do I do about the base (underwear with no armour model) for making the Wandercall lady animation tileset work with Flare? Wandercall has 1 base model animation whereas Flare engine has 5 separate bases that have invisible mask / texture over the parts not rendered for making default_head, default_chest, default_hands, default_legs, default_feet. How can this be done for the Wandercall lady in 2.79? What can be done; how are those invisible segments created in Blender 2.79? I'm not sure fantasycore can use just 1 base and I think if the Wandercall lady is made to 5 base .blend files like the Flare female heroine base it would probably be better overall? As in change 3D hero / heroine 1-2 models verses change the engine; making more compatible .blend files would seem to make more sense mhmm? What should be done for this? |
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Also the Wandercall lady lacks dedicated casting and shooting animations. So at this point it looks like more animations should be added to get this otherwise great player character asset fully compatible with Flare. Also what is needed is a working proper male version too and both need more armour (so all 6 visual appearances are represented underwear, clothing, robes, leather armour, mail, armour, plate armour) also possibly 5 default base segments too. |
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Is that orc from Flare as well? You see, if you can find an armature with all of the animations you need, you are better off stripping the original armature and inserting the new one (you will probably need to asign vertexs to matching the new bones, it´s easy but time consuming). It is actually easier to import that hipothetic fully animated armature and properly rig it than creating new moves for an old one, you can convert the whole animation to a nla strip which can be cut in smaller pieces and shortened or enlarged with just "S" key to match your intended keyframes. (longer, bigger quality animation scales down looking better to less keyframes) For the male/female models I would go one step further, prepare just an unisex animated armature, and just have the naked "pieces" sexualized while all other armors and the like are unisex as well. This saves you from having to make male/female versions of everything. |
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Now I have to figure out the how to make the arms and weapon not have visual layer bugs. I think have to figured out a new blender model that has the invisible mask. Any guidance or help would be appreciated although it looks like I will have to start with the armoured knight and wrestle with blender and my lack of experience to get the gauntlets and weapons to work with the invisible mask already found on the armoured human female model from wander call; hacking and deleting pieces won't help this round but I hope this more refined approach helps. Also I have to fix the default layers so they work properly and not over lap like I currently have them to get them off the ground; this visual bug with the default base is a fixable it just takes time. So far it does work at 60 fps and it does show that 4k Flare with beautiful visuals and powerful technical performance is more than reasonable. I hope to get the human female working with the plate armour and animations for also dual wielding and shooting and any other missing animations and get that working this month or close to it. I plan to share these files / assets with the community once they are proper and work well. While also hopefully giving some development documentation of what to get them to work and make more mhmmm. |
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You can change the layer order in In your last screenshot, the player is facing "SE", which is direction 6. So in fantasycore's If your 2H sword is in the |
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Thank you everyone Justin and Danimal. I am hoping to get a alpha play test demo out this month (version 0.003) to keep pacing with a big content patch every month mhmm. I have some more blender work with the invis masks as in I only have the hands chest and boots done and I still need to do the head legs and weapons. I should get the models and asset files shared to soon with hopefully some how to documentation. Also I have to complete the mac / linux / non windows all lower case compatible format upgrade hopefully with version 0.003. |
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layer=0,main,feet,legs,hands,chest,head,off I am close to adding in a few details to hopefully release version 0.003 with the alpha play demo this month! |
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I think there is a way to choose layer rendering order, that way you could make sword be the topmost rendered one. Don´t remember how though. |
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I have been thinking about the pros and cons of remaking the male/female base animations; this doesn´t mean I will do it, but if the pros are way more I can be tempted to.
Pros:
Cons:
As Dorskter said, if the workflow could be automated somehow it woulnd´t be such a huge workload, do we know someone skilled at script-fu? some place to ask for it?
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